This is crossing the line - Cork Independent News

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This is crossing the line

Written by Staff Reporter

Thursday, 17 December 2009

A Cork City Presbyterian Minister has denounced a carol service that the LGBT community has planned for today (Thursday) at St Anne's Church in Shandon, condemning the "promotion of the homosexual lifestyle" as "crossing the line". The comments by Rev John Faris of the Trinity Presbyterian Church were originally posted on his Facebook page this week.

"A Cork church is to have a LGTB carol service. I long for everyone, whatever their sexual orientation, to have a joyful and peaceful Christmas, but there can be no true joy or peace in actively practising and celebrating a lifestyle, which does not please God," it read.

"Maybe a church leader shouldn't be criticising other churches, but with something like this, a line is crossed," he continued. However, Rev Faris told the Cork Independent that while he is sorry his comments have caused offence, he does not believe that the homosexual "lifestyle" is in keeping with the bible's teachings and the traditional view held by his Church.

"Male to male, or female to female, sexual encounters are not pleasing to God." He said he was not "qualified" to discuss the matter of bisexual or transgender people, but said he would not close the door of the Church on anyone. He said that he did not accept that homosexuality was acceptable to God and was no more than a "behaviour pattern" which should not be chosen. Rev Faris added that homosexuals who would not be happy in a heterosexual relationship would be better off remaining celibate.

His comments enraged the LGBT organiser Liam McDaide, a Blackpool member of the Cork lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender group and a practising Christian, who said the service was a refuge for LGBT community "who so often feel left out of the message of love at Christmas".

"This is the problem us Christian LGBTs face - decent men and women who simply misunderstand. He clearly judges LGBT on an image he has of their "lifestyle" rather than understanding that sexuality is an unchangeable gift from the Almighty," Liam said. He implored people planning to attend the carol service, and those who aren't to "join with us in praying that God opens the mind of good men and women throughout the Church universal to an understanding of what we really are - decent, hard working people whose only demand is to be considered equal to out heterosexual brothers and sisters". Liam told the Cork Independent this week that the minister's "backward" opinion has upset the community but said that this is the third LGBT Church service this year. "Being gay is not a lifestyle. It is the way God made us," Liam said. "Nobody chooses to be gay."

"I feel sorry for his congregation and especially any gay members. Gay Christians have a bad time of it," he said, adding that Rev Faris has invited him to discuss the issue after Christmas.

The service is also being supported Rev Brian O'Rourke of St Anne's and Changing Attitude, a Northern Irish organisation that works to move the Church of Ireland to be more accepting of diversity.

Comments (15) »

turkish lgbtt films
written by gay sohbet, February 09, 2011

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tolerance all around
written by Markd, January 12, 2010

I love your reply Alex. your use of scripture demonstrates how ludicrous it is to quote scripture and apply it to a modern era. of course everyone is right to some degree and I agree that the minister has an absolute right to air his opinions. i dont agree with those who effectively want to encourage censorship of opinion. Look if the particular Sect of a Christian Church comes out and says this is against their rules dont worry unless you are opposed to those rules and a member of that church. then you clearly have an issue and a decision to make. I am not homosexual but am a Christian and personally I think that the Christian values are an idea, an ideal to aspire to. Living a good life is possible for all people regardless of their sexuality or sexual practices.If that minister was advocating stoning gays then clearly that would elicit a different response from me. i think gay people requesting tolerance should practice tolerance in return like Cleo.

God Bless you all

@BJKD
written by Alex DeLarge, January 11, 2010

You are correct that Romans is quite clear on this topic, I would also like to remind you that Leviticus 18:22 also clearly states it to be an abomination.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Disappointment2
written by Paul, December 22, 2009

Crossing the line is most apt as it additionally asks if such comments in the public domain furthers the cause of people, states and institutions that have and continue to persecute minorities for who they are. In years to come the media and ideals of free speech will come under the spotlight as we try to decide when someone’s point of view or actions cross an ethical line and may legitimise hatred and violence.

I interpret these comments as very hurtful and concerned at the lengths that homophobic persons could go to, having read these comments. As someone who once practised Christianity and having met wonderful, compassionate authorities in christian bodies, I made a difficult resolution to no longer be part of a set of beliefs that whether consciously or unconsciously, directly or indirectly continue to legitimise hatred and violence of people for who they are and the related negative impact it has on LGBT people. I did not choose a ‘behaviour pattern’ to be gay and to claim that I did or twist it around interpretation of a holy text furthers my alienation from such religious beliefs and institutions.

I am certain that these comments did not intend to give legitimacy to the murderers of Walter Trochez, a Honduran LGBT rights activist or those of Matthew Shepard or the leaders of eight states and regions that sanction the death penalty for being homosexual. However, the degree to which such comments could contribute to legitimising such hatred and prejudice is at the heart of the matter. To simply say that this rests and is debatable on scriptural interpretation opens up a barrage of interpretations from other opinions, beliefs and faiths and a loss of something so essential; what it means to be human, living together, sharing together and loving together.

How is a victim of homophobic bullying or a person coming to terms with their sexuality to ‘interpret’ these comments? How do these authoritative comments help to heal wounds and society as a whole to move forward in compassion and understanding?

Genuine compassion is based on the recognition that others have the right to happiness just like yourself. One aspect of this kind of compassion is a sense of caring responsibility. Despite having left Christianity I strive to live by its golden rule which is shared by the majority of world faiths; “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”.

He healeth the broken heart
written by BrianD, December 22, 2009

Isiah 61
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Thank goodness there is healing and hope in the Lord , in his finished work at Calvary, he provides healing and hope

May we not forget that

...
written by Paul McAndrew, December 22, 2009

I have set up a Facebook group for those who believe that its not acceptable that a UCC Chaplain should make homophobic public statements:

"Homophobic public comments by a UCC staff member should not be tolerated"
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=211757736965

Because a lot of people opposed to that position joined the group, I have also set up a second facebook group for those who want to debate the issue:
"debating homophobia at UCC Chaplaincy"
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=252858229114

Devil's Advocate ;)
written by Cleo, December 22, 2009

John, I think your mother has the right attitude. My own equally Catholic mother was much of the same mind. Good thing too, given that her youngest child (myself) was to turn out gay!

As a gay person who has managed to keep her Christian faith, I disagree with Rev. Faris on this issue. However, I do feel he is entitled to express his views on scriptural interpretation. If he disagrees with the notion of an LGBT carol service, he has every right to say so. His language quoted above does not strike me as offensive. Of course there are those who would argue that his very opinions on the matter are offensive, but he *is* entitled to them. It's a difficult issue and people on both sides have to respect that (easier said than done, I know!)

BJKD, I am very familiar with the pain "this way of life causes". It comes from ignorance and misunderstanding on the part of society and Christian communities. I spent a long time trying to change and be "normal", like many such as Exodus told me I should. I spent a lot of time praying for help. Today, I have come to accept myself and reconcile being gay with my faith, and I am far from in pain. You can tell me I'm misguided if you like, that's between me and God. I wish your friend well, but ex-gay ministries do far more harm than good. If I may again quote John's wise mammy: "You can't change a person's nature."

End of sermon. :)

bigotry
written by phil, December 22, 2009

So what changes was not the Presbyterian Church always small minded in every issue that was not of their conformity. Bigotry never dies with some.
I suppose some things never change.

Nature
written by John, December 22, 2009

My very Catholic mother used to say of the gay and lesbian people in our neighborhood, "It's their nature. You can't change a person's nature." She had the lesbian girls across the street over regularly because they were "so nice and intelligent." My father enjoyed their company too. And on sex in general: "The last person you should listen to about sex would be a clergyman."

Really observing and respecting another person reveals more truth than any book that has been used as an excuse to mistreat different people over the course of centuries.

...
written by concerned citizen, December 21, 2009

The bible is very clear on all relationships outside
of marriage, it also addresses this issue, in Romans 1:25-27

I know it is a difficult issue for people in our city, we must be clear on what the word of God says, in Romans 1.
I know a great deal hurt has ocurred over this subject

Thank goodness the Lord Jesus the one who knows the needs of man.for those who repent and trust in him he has dealt with the issue of sin.
John 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Mr
written by BJKD, December 21, 2009

I would like to thank Rev Farris, for having the courage to speak out on this issue.

The word of God in both the old and new testament is very clear, on this issue, I would suggest all readers read Romans Chapter 1.

I have know people caught up in this way of life and the pain it causes. I know of great Christain ministries that have helped a friend of mine over come it Exodus Ministries .

The Lord is gracious , he died to pay the price of our sins. Trust in him. Understand the great gift he has given us, for he gave himself for us.

May God Bless you all

Profound disappointment
written by Paul, December 20, 2009

Rev. Faris' comments are personally disappointing from a spiritual and social level.

Rev. Faris is also a staff member at Iona - UCC's chaplaincy. His comments would seriously call into question the authority of such a University body (and its funding sources) and in particular his role, given the majority young and impressionable minds it aims to influence. I can only hope the minimum is done to rectify itself as Christianity continues to tarnish itself and destroy peoples' faiths.

Door's Open...who will enter?
written by Evan, December 17, 2009

Am I reading this correct?

Rev Faris says in the article he does not approve of the "lifestyle" and is almost condemning the LGBT Carol Service, yet...he has no problem letting LGBT people into the services he carries out. Isn't that almost like double standards for his church?

I think he's just angry because he knows Rev O' Rourke got the service first or that he realises there's some kind of extremist view here he can take and pull the attention away from a truly helpful service for those on the margins of religion.

In Liam's words: "I feel sorry for his congregation and especially any gay members."

?What planet is he on ...
written by Tim , December 17, 2009

How does the minister know what is or isnt acceptable to God? Did he tell him? Every single book of the bible - WITHOUT exception has been written by a MAN - therefore is fallible. Every single church rule, doctrine, canon, every single scrap of parchment, catholic or otherwise has been written by a MAN .. therefore fallible .. How dare he speak for God ...I think somehow, that the Jesus I understand would be ashamed of this minister.

He is the Grinch who tried to steal Christmas
written by Paul McAndrew, December 17, 2009

He is the Grinch who tried to steal Christmas, and his heart is at least 3 sizes too small.

He should remember that Jesus' anger was mainly aimed at the bigoted rule-obsessed religious authorities

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